Are tables really dead?

There's a big difference between "avoid using tables" and "don't use tables". Well, In my opinion you should avoid using table, but sometimes you have no other choice.

Originally Posted by NuPixel Well you've got an orange signature, what's that say about you?

it says that skin sucks.

defining someone as good or bad because of some arbitrary decision like tables or divs is no different than defining someone's skill based off their favourite colour. i've seen good code make use of tables (and yes, i'm talking about layout and not charts), and i've see absolute trash with divs.

think about it, really. it's like saying walking is dead because we have cars.

Tables vs Divs is not like Orange vs Blue, colors are up to personal preference, tables are not meant to be layout pieces and they take longer to load. I couldn't tell a math teacher your argument when a math problem is being presented that I don't like.

This does not mean that divs make a page good, tables just make it bad. Tables for tabular data are perfectly fine however.

sure you could:

x = 8
does x = 5 + 3 or 4*2, maybe 16 / 2, 9 - 1, 4 - -4, etc?

one isn't right over the other just because it uses a different method. one is probably better, IE 5+3 over 4 - -4, because it's cleaner and more straight forward, but 4 - -4 isn't wrong, it still equals 8, it's just not as good of a solution.

example 2: if someone makes a logo in photoshop is it a bad design just because it's raster? it's not very functional, but that doesn't effect the aesthetics.

sometimes people take this table thing too far. if you can use divs, good, do it. but the internet doesn't break when someone uses a table. it just makes you better than 1 more person.

edit: i'm saying this more to people who say "table = bad coder". i've seen equally bad work come from people using divs. just using divs over a table doesn't make you any better of a coder - especially if you don't even understand why you're doing it.

also, rules can be broken. if it takes 2 steps to do it via table and 14 to hack up some workaround with divs, is it really better recreating the wheel? funny how some coders will do almost anything to recreate the wheel in order to be table free, then they complain about how designers are bad for trying to recreate the wheel too much when they try to break out of boring design expectations.

another edit: is someone a bad driver because they have an automatic transmission instead of a standard?

i just think someone people take it too seriously at times.

Originally Posted by derek lapp sure you could: x = 8 does x = 5 + 3 or 4*2, maybe 16 / 2, 9 - 1, 4 - -4, etc? one isn't right over the other just because it uses a different method. one is probably better, IE 5+3 over 4 - -4, because it's cleaner and more straight forward, but 4 - -4 isn't wrong, it still equals 8, it's just not as good of a solution.

That is to get to the same thing, tables vs. divs have different outcomes, doesn't apply. Also, x=8 is the easier to read, therefore better.

Originally Posted by derek lapp example 2: if someone makes a logo in photoshop is it a bad design just because it's raster? it's not very functional, but that doesn't effect the aesthetics.

If it takes longer to load, its worse.

Originally Posted by derek lapp sometimes people take this table thing too far. if you can use divs, good, do it. but the internet doesn't break when someone uses a table. it just makes you better than 1 more person.

The road doesn't break with your muffler, but you would probably agree a car with a muffler is better then one without.

Originally Posted by derek lapp edit: i'm saying this more to people who say "table = bad coder". i've seen equally bad work come from people using divs. just using divs over a table doesn't make you any better of a coder - especially if you don't even understand why you're doing it.

There is no such thing as a good programmer who doesn't know why he is doing what he is doing.

Originally Posted by derek lapp also, rules can be broken. if it takes 2 steps to do it via table and 14 to hack up some workaround with divs, is it really better recreating the wheel? funny how some coders will do almost anything to recreate the wheel in order to be table free, then they complain about how designers are bad for trying to recreate the wheel too much when they try to break out of boring design expectations.

There may be some instances where tables are better, but that is on a by instance basis, you cant use that as a universal justification. Edit: Especially when talking about an entire layout being based off of a table.

Originally Posted by derek lapp another edit: is someone a bad driver because they have an automatic transmission instead of a standard? i just think someone people take it too seriously at times.

Automatic and manual transmission make no difference on the drive unless the driver is overall inexperienced. Nothing, and I mean nothing can serve as a replacement for genuine experience. Edit: I would rather an experienced coder who uses tables then an inexperienced coder who uses divs.

Originally Posted by Village Idiot I would rather an experienced coder who uses tables then an inexperienced coder who uses divs.

that's what i was trying to get at, as a lot of the people who are so anal about divs over tables are inexperienced and act like divs = automatic better just because it's divs.

i had to use a table for our company web site, because it's supposed to be dead centered, and css centering cut off the menu for anyone on 8x6 or viewing in a restored window and a table was the only way to enforce the height and force a scrollbar when the site was bigger than the window.

Originally Posted by derek lapp that's what i was trying to get at, as a lot of the people who are so anal about divs over tables are inexperienced and act like divs = automatic better just because it's divs. i had to use a table for our company web site, because it's supposed to be dead centered, and css centering cut off the menu for anyone on 8x6 or viewing in a restored window and a table was the only way to enforce the height and force a scrollbar when the site was bigger than the window.

If you had asked in the XHTML/CSS forum, I'm sure many people (as well as myself) would have given you the necessary CSS to dead-center a layout in a browser no matter how small it is. Without tables.

Also, tables are SUPPOSED to be dead. A long time ago, when the web was new; a guy at CERN invented the hypertext markup language (or at least the basic concepts that lead up to a version of it). Later on, tables were introduced for sharing tabular data over the internet. It was revolutionary! Then some smart guy decided to take his image program and combine it with the web. Slowly, people figured out that you could use tables to position images, making the appearance of great layouts. Unfortunately, standards-compliant browsers also started to slowly become more standards compliant as they progressed, making tables obselete since one line of HTML would be 4 lines of table with the correct CSS. The end. >_>

STOP USING THEM!

i know how to dead center with css, it doesn't re-enforce height.

Originally Posted by derek lapp it says that skin sucks. defining someone as good or bad because of some arbitrary decision like tables or divs is no different than defining someone's skill based off their favourite colour. i've seen good code make use of tables (and yes, i'm talking about layout and not charts), and i've see absolute trash with divs. think about it, really. it's like saying walking is dead because we have cars.

COULDNT AGREE MORE!!

Originally Posted by derek lapp i know how to dead center with css, it doesn't re-enforce height.

You can't do anything with tables that you can't do with divs and CSS...