Discuss the use of html elements

Originally Posted by Andrew R Wow, from looking at your site, rochow, you are one ****ing arrogant person. Especially from reading your HTML comments (Q&A). How you get any clients at all is beyond me. Also, in your code, I can see a bunch of unnecessary tags, empty ones, etc. so I don't see why you call yourself 'the best'.

Go on then: name the unneccessary tags, name the empty ones (and everything else you placed under etc.)

I'll pick the rest out later but this if the first one I came across.

Note the empty span tags in the navigation: http://www.matthewrochow.com/projects/driven/

Also on that same page, search for these:
<a href="#" class="button"></a>
<li id="m5"></li>
<div class="abox-bt"></div>

You use some of those multiple times.

etc... do you want me to continue onto your other work?

Also, as for unnecessary ones, you could've easily gotten rid of many of your wrapping/content divs. You don't need a header container, you only need one to wrap around the entire content (the top image could be the background of the navigation, the bottom image could be on the footer, main background on that one div), and you don't need so many inner ones.

Originally Posted by Andrew R I'll pick the rest out later but this if the first one I came across. Note the empty span tags in the navigation: http://www.matthewrochow.com/projects/driven/ Also on that same page, search for these: <a href="#" class="button"></a> <li id="m5"></li> <div class="abox-bt"></div> You use some of those multiple times. etc... do you want me to continue onto your other work? Also, as for unnecessary ones, you could've easily gotten rid of many of your wrapping/content divs. You don't need a header container, you only need one to wrap around the entire content (the top image could be the background of the navigation, the bottom image could be on the footer, main background on that one div), and you don't need so many inner ones.

I didn't actually do all of that, I just tidied it up a bit. I was questioning whether to put it in or not (as it's not entirely my own), but it makes the number of items nice and even.

Pick on some newer ones please.

I was looking through yours. Granted, I don't want to pick on your old work - as time goes on better ways of doing things are learnt. I found quite a few things in this that could be improved.

Yeah, I could probably pick out more problems with my portfolio then you could ever do to the same work, which is why I'm completely redoing my portfolio later this month (already have several works to be put in it).

However, my point is, is that you shouldn't claim your work is perfect, when it is clearly not. I know my work isn't the best, far from it, actually, which is why you won't see my calling my work the best, like you do on your portfolio.

Originally Posted by Andrew R Yeah, I could probably pick out more problems with my portfolio then you could ever do to the same work, which is why I'm completely redoing my portfolio later this month (already have several works to be put in it). However, my point is, is that you shouldn't claim your work is perfect, when it is clearly not. I know my work isn't the best, far from it, actually, which is why you won't see my calling my work the best, like you do on your portfolio.

What should I say then, "I'm pretty good?" Everyone claims they are pretty good.

It is nothing more than a marketing ploy. Everyone has their own angle, and I've gone with "I'm good and if you don't see it, then your loss" which most of the time it is, because they'll go with someone else who won't do a very good job. Especially these PSD->HTML places popping up left, right and center.

Thankfully, you are one of the better coders on TFL. I see so many guys throwing up something even Imageready would turn its nose up at, to turn around and charge the clients $200+ - when there are lots of coders who'd charge far less and do a kickass job. One great example was a Wordpress job a couple months back - I quoted the client $175 and some other mob quoted $750, and the client was almost going to pay it too. Rub is, they sucked. If they were gurus, then $750 could be justifiable. But for something I'd even question paying $75 for, no way, for charging that much they are down right ripping people off. Yes, people should have freedom for charging what they want. For god sakes though, when people are blantatly lying to potential clients (we are the best, thats why we charge 5 times more) then I have an issue with that.

It really ****es me off that so many clients are basically scammed - they are told they are getting a good job for lots of money when really they aren't at all.

And I must say I disagree, my work is pretty damn perfect. For the prices I charge, there is next to no-one who produces the same quality. Taking into account that if they only want a quickie job, they aren't going to get a print stylesheet, a handheld stylesheet, and all the bells and whistles that add considerable extra time, for not much benefit.

EDIT: I see you watch Ramsays. What a great example! You would say he's one of the best chefs right? Have you actually tasted his food though? That's exactly what I am doing. I say I'm the best, I have testimonials saying I'm good - therefore I must be. You have to keep in mind that lots of clients are not professional coders themselves, and therefore don't really know what they are looking for in the source in terms of quality. They will go off how I present myself and what other people say. The same way I'm not a food critic, so even if I tasted Gordons food I wouldn't actually know what I'm looking for the determine its "quality".

Is he arrogant, co.cky, and pis.ses a lot of people off? You bet ya.

On the contrary, do lots of people love him for cutting the bull**** and laying out the facts? Yep.

That's what I try and do. Cut the ****, and lay out the facts.

Going back to the original post, lots of people throw in <div>'s because they can. It used to be a bad habit of mine, div for the header, div for the content, div for the footer. That's the problem with so much misinformation going around that - lots of people with good intentions learn new things, however they are the wrong things.

Originally Posted by Andrew R Wow, from looking at your site, rochow, you are one ****ing arrogant person. Especially from reading your HTML comments (Q&A). How you get any clients at all is beyond me.

I can't find the Q&A but believe me Matt is a nice guy. And he delivers some of the best pieces of code around.

Originally Posted by Andrew R Note the empty span tags in the navigation: http://www.matthewrochow.com/projects/driven/ Also on that same page, search for these: <a href="#" class="button"></a> <li id="m5"></li> <div class="abox-bt"></div> You use some of those multiple times.

Hmm... I don't see many things wrong here. Empty tags aren't always unnecessary, same thing with the occasional extra DIV's aren't always DIVitis (or DIVitus).

My advise is don't check the code alone, render it on a browser and see what those things are for and how they works, one might learn a few new things from just doing that. I know I would.

Lol, this amused me

That's what I try and do. Cut the ****, and lay out the facts.

Yet, you're site is a marketing ploy as you say yourself...

Originally Posted by VimF I can't find the Q&A but believe me Matt is a nice guy. And he delivers some of the best pieces of code around. Hmm... I don't see many things wrong here. Empty tags aren't always unnecessary, same thing with the occasional extra DIV's aren't always DIVitis (or DIVitus). My advise is don't check the code alone, render it on a browser and see what those things are for and how they works, one might learn a few new things from just doing that. I know I would.

I did check more than the code. Also, rendering isn't a sign of good code. I could get ****ty code to render well on all browsers, (I could use tables, iframes, font tags, etc.) and make it look well.

Yep, that's true. But I didn't say anything about cross-browsers. All I said was it's difficult to tell if the code is bad or what it is for, without checking it in "a" browser.

Without checking the real page out, you can't tell if the div id="menu" is useless or not.

Also, look the other way around, beautiful and near-perfect code doesn't mean that it won't mess up in half of the browsers out there.

VimF: I checked the code using multiple browsers, and inspected it using Firebug. I know what every bit of his code is doing, and I still stand by what I said. Even though he is using each div for a purpose, the same thing could be done with less code.

I've been doing this for much longer than you, I reckon, so please don't try to tell me what makes good code, or telling me to check more than one thing to see if it is good code (i.e. more than just looking at the code). I checked it using Firebug, by inspecting each div, I read through the code, and I also checked it in 3 browsers.