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Standards, use them.

Thread title: Standards, use them.
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03-05-2005, 04:24 PM
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  Old  Standards, use them.

Ok, so obviously there has been some crazy talk about standards and internet explorer and firefox, etc. I am a big advocate for using and promoting standards usage on the Internet, and therefore feel compelled to clear up some false information being printed in the threads here.

THIS IS NOT A MICROSOFT HATING THREAD!
Despite my obvious opinions toward them, this is about standards itself.

Tim Berners-Lee created the internet, and proclaimed that it will remain free for everyone and must maintain backwards compatiblity. Remember this statement. In 1994 Tim created the World Wide Web Consortium (W3), in order to, and I quote,


W3C primarily pursues its mission through the creation of Web standards and guidelines. In its first ten years, W3C published more than eighty such W3C Recommendations. W3C also engages in education and outreach, develops software, and serves as an open forum for discussion about the Web. In order for the Web to reach its full potential, the most fundamental Web technologies must be compatible with one another and allow any hardware and software used to access the Web to work together. W3C refers to this goal as “Web interoperability.” By publishing open (non-proprietary) standards for Web languages and protocols, W3C seeks to avoid market fragmentation and thus Web fragmentation.
W3 IS the leading standard for web technology. Standards are for the benefit of mankind and thus should be followed as closely as possible so that everyone can view what you may have to offer. Anything you publish on the web is knowledge that another could learn, or something they may have never experienced before. Denying any one group to view your website becuase it is made for a specific browser etc, is just a version of racism. Yes, I said it. Browser Racism.


Internet Explorer is a common browser that does not comply to standards. While they may not comply to standards It is still my duty to code for it so that I maintain a cross-browser compatibility that IE just blatently disregarded. Either way, this is a bad thing for everyone.

Obviously a discussion on standards can be so much more thatn waht I have just plotted here, but the simple fact remains that most people just do not understand the actual concept of standards, or more importantly, its purpose for the benefit of everyone.

We define where technology goes. Therefore it is our own responsibility to keep it together and usable by everyone, not only through a usability standpoint, but through a technical standpoint as well.

I suggest that everyone read a book, an article, or watch a video about standards compliance and why it is a much bigger deal than you may at this time realize.

Whether or not you like or dislike Open Source and its philosphies, or if you are in love with it and hate anything proprietary, you owe it to yourself to educate yourself on both sides of the fence. Ignorance is not an excuse for anything in life. So don't reply to this thread unless you research what you are about to type and have an honest opinion on it, without false facts being displayed.

My name is Eric Bobbitt. I use Linux & Windows. Standards dont care what I use.

03-05-2005, 04:28 PM
#2
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  Old

im all for standards. it helps designers because browser compliant browsers will ensure your site looks pretty much the same all over the place.

ive got a book on deisgning with webstards so far so good quite interesting.

03-05-2005, 05:42 PM
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i'm all for standards - because they make the most sense, not because some guy wants me to. but, this is just getting out of hand. this is like a small scale psyco pushing his religion onto other people.

if a client wants standards and someone doesn't know how, then they'll simply find someone who does. otherwise, there isn't a problem. move on with yourlife.

web standards doesn't make it better in most cases because people don't know what they're doing or the situation simply doesn't help. image ready can code to webstandards technically.... you just try to tell me that's quality work.

03-05-2005, 06:16 PM
#4
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  Old

Originally Posted by derek.l
if a client wants standards and someone doesn't know how, then they'll simply find someone who does. otherwise, there isn't a problem. move on with yourlife.
A lack of knowing standards is a problem - who is teaching non standards usage?


web standards doesn't make it better in most cases because people don't know what they're doing or the situation simply doesn't help. image ready can code to webstandards technically.... you just try to tell me that's quality work.
I dont know how to respond to that statement about standards not making anything better, its just nonsense. As far as quality, standards has no effect on the visual or programming quality itself. That is up to the author, but do not think for one second that it hinders it at all. Ever.

Once agian, please do not post any false information here!

03-05-2005, 07:00 PM
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  Old

Standards is all about choice. It doesn't make a drastic difference to the user, but it helps the owner/coder of the page. Standards would be useful for, let's say a Portfolio, as long as you have a good reason to back up why standards could help them.

03-05-2005, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
As far as quality, standards has no effect on the visual or programming quality itself.
So he is correct in saying it doesn't make it any better, why are you arguing something you agree on.

03-05-2005, 08:39 PM
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  Old

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
A lack of knowing standards is a problem - who is teaching non standards usage?
no one is saying "standards are bad". i'm saying 'overall they're not as useful as people make them out to be'. you're forcing them onto people for all the wrong reasons.

if a client or a coder doesn't know about standards, they will obviously not care or enforce them (if they're the anal type that would really demand it or bust) and you've got some justification in saying use standards because "x,y and z". standards can help under the right circumstances. but after bringing the point up, you're job is done. they'll ask for them or they won't. there isn't much you can do about it. getting pissed off and saying "you're not listening. X, Y and Z!" will just get you fired.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
I dont know how to respond to that statement about standards not making anything better, its just nonsense. As far as quality, standards has no effect on the visual or programming quality itself. That is up to the author, but do not think for one second that it hinders it at all. Ever.
perhaps a more detailed example will help you see. web design is not html development. it's design for use on the web. that's how there's a difference between a web designer and a developer. this is an old design of mine which i've revised since then, but it proves my point well. even if i optimize this as much as it can be, using semantic markup and stndards driven code, this website will be workable on a computer, but completely impractical for some of the new technologies like handhelds which is the entire point of the xhtml/css standards craze.

standards has nothing to do with IE sucking at rendering code. it's about optimizing for all available platforms. a design such as that simply can't be optimized for every platform, yet it can still be considered standards complient which is my point. it's standards as it will be, and it's only practical for computers, which is what standards are all about, which justifies what i said in every way it can be taken.

standards will not help bandwidth issues with that design, they won't help server sotrage space, they won't help IE render it better than if it wasn't standards complient (for the record, i had coded this design and it worked perfectly fine in IE and FF), they won't make it optimal for viewing on varying devices. the only thing doing standards complient coding on a job like this will do is impressing people who don't really understand the point of it and can doop them into giving me work instead of someguy who charges less because he doens't know what his time is worth.

i refer to this statement at this time.
Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
the simple fact remains that most people just do not understand the actual concept of standards, or more importantly, its purpose for the benefit of everyone.
you pretty much proved yourself right with your rebuttle and the intial point of this thread. you're throwing it on people for no reason. if they want it, they'll use it. if not, go about your day. if it truely has the impact you say it does, they'll come piling up at your doorstep because only use practice standards compliency despite your flaws in theory.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
you owe it to yourself to educate yourself on both sides of the fence. Ignorance is not an excuse for anything in life.
then why are you so one sided in your arguments? i'm a web designer before i'm a web developer. i find development to be more fun sometimes, but when it's up to me, presentation is what get's the highest rung, becuase that's what all the non-tech savy people will judge. i do my job to make the back/client end ad optimal as i can for personal benefit and for those who can understand it: that you can have both.

if you want to have empty, boring dull websites that can conform to every possible machine regardless of how many you really want to reach, then standards compliency (where you have as few images as possible in the layout design, and the visual presentation is 90% code based or greater w3.org for example) is right where you want to be. otherwise, there isn't much they can do for you. they didn't help my example one bit. i practice them because it's logical and in the event someone comes to me looking for that type of solution, i can prove i'm capable by having a wide range of work (from graphic heavy to completely code driven). it's a matter of choice. give your reasons of x,y and z and move on. there's nothing else you can do UNLESS PEOPLE COME TO YOU. this isn't the case here, which is why i'm attacking it.

people get pissed off when they're hassled about religion eing forced onto them, so why should this be acceptable? the points have been brought up time and time again, you've done your part, don't go knocking door to door handing pamhlets out. you'll get less across because people will refuse to read it despit you, regardless of who it may help them. i'm for using standards and i'm arguing against what you're saying. surely you see the problem with that?

i'm not trying to be an *******, but this kind of blind ranting just gives bad names to people. there's always 2 sides on this debate "for and against". why can't you people just recognize both sides have valid points and work in the middle like i do? there's standards for coding, but they don't have any benefit if the design itself (the photoshop layout for example) isn't engineered to make use of the benefits standards bring. which was my point all along and always will be.

03-05-2005, 11:03 PM
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  Old

I can't see how you can not code in standards.. it just seems so.. dumb.. not to. Putting it blultly, anyway.

03-06-2005, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JamesYooKay
I can't see how you can not code in standards.. it just seems so.. dumb.. not to. Putting it blultly, anyway.
Anyone who codes a website uses certain standards. They have too, thats why its a standard.

03-06-2005, 06:23 AM
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First of all, standards is just a new trend. Before standard, did anyone of you even know what standars is? I doubt it!! You might have heard of it, but using it!! I dunno!!! Plus half of you here don't really even know what W3C means when they say STANDARD!!!! I hate it when people go and preach about web standards after reading through hundred of articles.

Now lets look at the broswers issue. FireFox was design, code, program specifically for web developers. IE was design to improve the usage of their products. Just like Macromedia!! If you look at their products, all of them are closely related.

Now lets look at the date of the release. Since the birth of FireFox, IE has already been about ohh 4 or 5 years old. Okay, where was FireFox about 4 or 5 years ago? Oh wait, 4 or 5 years we have Mozilla which sucks!!!

Basically, web standars is a trend!! Sorta like, web Blogs!! Before 2004, ppl don't know what a web blog is!! Now, 99 out a 100 person has a web blog!!

In the end of the day, use what you know best!!!! Whether its standards or not!!

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