Copyright on a custom site.

Hey guys,

Awhile ago i employed someone to build me a site, when the site was done i had a big bill for a little job, but that was expected. What i did not get told was on everypage his site copyright would have to be on the site and if i wanted to rremove it id have to pay 4x the price for the site to be made.


What can i do ?


Michael

Did you sign a contract? That should have been the first thing you did before you started this contact. There really inst much you can do. Im hoping you didnt pay hundreds for the design since it has his copyright information on it.

Since you didn't know about this requirement of the designers', I'm assuming there is nothing in writing about this that you agreed to, and you didn't agree to it verbally.

This is all unofficial advice so please take it that.

If you and he are both in the U.S., and you're a minor, in most cases, you're not legally bound to any contract. Generally speaking, and there are some odd exceptions, contracts with minors are not enforceable. This is why in most states you can't rent a car until you're 18, can't make hotel reservations until you're 18 and so on...

If you're not a minor then whatever is standard in the industry concerning who holds the copyright to a completed design (the designer or the buyer) when this isn't specifically addressed in a contract, is probably what would determine what you can do about this.

If the standard practice is that the designer holds copyright to the completed design in cases where this issue isn't specifically agreed to, then you could have a problem....If it's the other way around, and the standard practice is that the buyer holds copyright, then your designer could have a problem trying to hold you to this.

I'm not a designer, so I can't answer this question but I'm sure people here could.

If the designer typically holds copyright in cases where the issue isn't specifically addressed in a contract, then the one thing that could help you is whether or not the 4x charge itself, is standard practice and/or a reasonable charge...If for example, it's standard practice for designers to charge 2x, then his position may be unreasonable and considered outside standard practices. In theory, this could mean he could still hold you to this, but maybe not at 4x the price.

All of this above is just theory though, and isn't worth anything at all unless one of you literally took legal action to settle this dispute.

Michael, I only give up a copyright for 5 - 10 times the value of the project. This is a significant cost and is outlined in depth in my standard contract.

You have to realise that giving up a copyright means that the designer can NEVER take credit for the project, they can NEVER use it in a portfolio, they can NEVER use aspects of it in a similar way in other projects, they can NEVER use snippets of custom coding in other projects etc...

Hence the steep price of selling the copyright.

Whoa no wonder, I've done a couple of contract work where I no longer retain ownership of the copyright. I had no idea I couldn't use it in my portfolio. I had clients explicitly ask not to be included but I had no idea copyright ownership was an issue.

So what do we put on our contracts to make sure we're able to use certain code and the ability to put it on our portfolio? Someone with eloquent writing reply to this, please .

Originally Posted by Dante Since you didn't know about this requirement of the designers', I'm assuming there is nothing in writing about this that you agreed to, and you didn't agree to it verbally. This is all unofficial advice so please take it that. If you and he are both in the U.S., and you're a minor, in most cases, you're not legally bound to any contract. Generally speaking, and there are some odd exceptions, contracts with minors are not enforceable. This is why in most states you can't rent a car until you're 18, can't make hotel reservations until you're 18 and so on... If you're not a minor then whatever is standard in the industry concerning who holds the copyright to a completed design (the designer or the buyer) when this isn't specifically addressed in a contract, is probably what would determine what you can do about this. If the standard practice is that the designer holds copyright to the completed design in cases where this issue isn't specifically agreed to, then you could have a problem....If it's the other way around, and the standard practice is that the buyer holds copyright, then your designer could have a problem trying to hold you to this. I'm not a designer, so I can't answer this question but I'm sure people here could. If the designer typically holds copyright in cases where the issue isn't specifically addressed in a contract, then the one thing that could help you is whether or not the 4x charge itself, is standard practice and/or a reasonable charge...If for example, it's standard practice for designers to charge 2x, then his position may be unreasonable and considered outside standard practices. In theory, this could mean he could still hold you to this, but maybe not at 4x the price. All of this above is just theory though, and isn't worth anything at all unless one of you literally took legal action to settle this dispute.

I'm going to have to add on to your statement about minors not being held liable. I'm pretty sure this is in about 48 or so states of the US, but--if a minor gains any thing from loss of contract, where as the other party can be found as loosing anything, property or finances, then the contract is not waived due to age.

Since you did not specify what you were getting, ie: putting it in writting, the designer could very well argue that you commissioned him to create a website about yourself. Basically, you paid for his services, and never actually purchased a product such as actual files and or designs.

Julian is perfectly correct on the reasons why releasing copyright is a big deal. However if I had to guess, the only reason they are requiring to keep the copyright on each page is due to the fact that they want publication.

Originally Posted by luis_mx So what do we put on our contracts to make sure we're able to use certain code and the ability to put it on our portfolio? Someone with eloquent writing reply to this, please .

The answer is simple, put in what you have just asked, into your contract.

I have written an article and provide an example contract for everyone to freely adapt to their personal situations:
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread2745.html

Originally Posted by Bennett I'm going to have to add on to your statement about minors not being held liable. I'm pretty sure this is in about 48 or so states of the US, but--if a minor gains any thing from loss of contract, where as the other party can be found as loosing anything, property or finances, then the contract is not waived due to age. Since you did not specify what you were getting, ie: putting it in writting, the designer could very well argue that you commissioned him to create a website about yourself. Basically, you paid for his services, and never actually purchased a product such as actual files and or designs.

I understand what you're getting at, but it's not accurate. To simplify....A 15 year old who signs a contract to buy a bicycle from an adult for $100 but never pays for the bicycle after it's delivered to him isn't supposed to benefit by still keeping the bike. That much is true enough, but the legal recourse in getting the bike back isn't based on the premise the contract is valid and enforceable.

The contract is still unenforceable because you can't legally compel the kid to pay the $100 for the bike...The law considers minors incapable of fully understanding contracts and their implications, and seeks to protect minors from predatory practices by adults. As a result, the law does not compel the minor to live up to his contractual obligation, thus rendering that contract unenforceable.

While the contract is unenforceable, the adult who entered into the contract and got burned, has additional recourse available to be made whole (to recover the bicycle) by pursuing those who bear legal responsibility for the minor's actions..ie; the parents.

In the situation of this thread, if the original poster was a minor and he removed the copyright without paying the 4x fee, the designer could do no better than to get his design back, and to compel the minor not to use the design on his site. He could not however, legally compel the minor or his parents to pay that 4x fee, and would in fact have to pay the minor back any monies exchanged for the design when the design was returned.

I downloaded and modified Julian's contract from this site. I don't recall if this was in his original contract or if I added it, but here's what I have in my contract:

37. Ownership to Web Pages and Graphics. Copyright to the finished assembled work of web pages produced by the Developer and graphics shall be vested with the Client upon final payment for the project. This ownership is to include, design, photos, graphics, HTML source code, work-up files, text, and any program(s) specifically designed or purchased on behalf of the Client for completion of this project. Copyright and Ownership does not include any programming libraries or APIs developed by the Developer that could be resold or reused on additional Web sites. Programming libraries and APIs are part of the working tools of the Developer and are created outside the scope of any particular Web site. The Client is not charged for the development of any such libraries or APIs and the Developer creates them to reduce the cost and doing business and which ultimately saves the Client from incurring unnecessary and additional charges for the Developer ‘reinventing the wheel’ on each and every Web site. 38. Design Credit. Client agrees that the Developer may put a byline on the bottom of their web site establishing design and development credit. Client also agrees that the web site created for the Client may be included in the Developer's portfolio.