Complaint threads disappearing

Originally Posted by TaeKwonJoe @cpr It didn't have to be made public, yet it should have the right to. If I wanted to hire Jordan for coding work that thread would prove useful to me, even if locked. Information is better than no information at all.

WHY? Everytime it boils down to 'If I...'. This isn't about helping you out when researching the clients, it's about keeping the community clean and
people happy.

Originally Posted by TaeKwonJoe Yeah, I could look at her iTrader, if there was one. Even if then, I wouldn't know the full story. Just a few words saying if the deal was good or bad. If it's a negative review, I'm sure Jordan would want me, as a client, to know the full story.

What if she had multiple bad ratings? Are you going to contact each one to find out the full story from each?

Originally Posted by TaeKwonJoe It's not unfair, and it doesn't tarnish peoples names as long as they aren't innocent.

What if the person in question is innocent? How will we know who is being truthful and who isn't? People can be persuasive and could quite easily make an innocent person look guilty.

Originally Posted by TaeKwonJoe It seems like this stuff isn't allowed simply because no one feels like moderating them. RARELY do these types of threads get out of control. If they do, then I guess someones going to have to do their job. It's a WHOLE lot of work to click your mouse button a couple of times eh?

If we weren't bothered and didn't feel like moderating do you really think I'd take the time to respond to you?

At the end of the day we've made it clear that the threads will be deleted. I'm not going to keep on repeating myself, if you don't like it then that's your problem. Perhaps you should start looking for different ways other than a Google search to find out whether a client is trustworthy or not.

I use "If I..." because it makes it easier to explain myself that way.

People aren't going to be happy if they get scammed due to things that could have been prevented, such as allowing these threads.

No, I'm not going to contact any of them. That's why the iTrader system for negative ratings sucks...you don't get the full story. It's a hell of a lot easier to just have a thread which states the full story of both sides.

Then that person will prove their innocence. Give me an example of when someone was proven to be guilty, when in reality they were actually innocent.

I do have other ways, it's called forum searching. But that doesn't work here; and it's not just my problem, several other people agree with me here, at least partially. I just seem to be the only one who bothers to discuss it.

Your reasoning for keeping these threads open is purely because it benefits you. Start looking at it with an open mind.

On the other side of things, people who haven't done anything wrong and don't get work because of the threads won't be happy either.

You do get a full story from the threads? How do you know who is lying and who is not? Honestly, how can I take you seriously when you seem to rely purely on a random forum thread as to whether you hire someone or not. A lot of the time people won't even have a dedicated 'testimonial' thread about them.

What if the thread is closed? If we'd of kept the Jordan / carmen thread open it would have gone round in circles, both parties thought they were in the right, how can we judge who was truthful?

I can't give you an example because I don't know who is guilty and who is not. This is the internet, someone can appear to be the most reliable person ever when infact they are totally the opposite. Surely the iTrader of someone who has 18 positive ratings and 5 negative gives you a better idea of them compared to a single thread that shows two people giving their side of a story.

It doesn't work because we use iTrader, which does work and has done for a long time, hence why a lot of other forums use it.

Originally Posted by cpr Your reasoning for keeping the threads open is purely so it benefits you. Start looking at it with an open mind. On the other side of things, people who haven't done anything wrong and don't get work because of the threads won't be happy either. You do get a full story from the threads? How do you know who is lying and who is not? Honestly, how can I take you seriously when you seem to rely purely on a random forum thread as to whether you hire someone or not. What if the thread is closed? If we'd of kept the Jordan / carmen thread open it would have gone round in circles, both parties thought they were in the right, how can we judge who was truthful? I can't give you an example because I don't know who is guilty and who is not. This is the internet, someone can appear to be the most reliable person ever when infact they are totally the opposite. Surely the iTrader of someone who has 18 positive ratings and 5 negative gives you a better idea of them compared to a single thread that shows two people giving their side of a story. It doesn't work because we use iTrader, which does work and has done for a long time, hence why a lot of other forums use it.

No, my reason is so that it benefits everyone.

If they haven't done anything wrong then they have nothing to worry about. If they have done something wrong, then you're giving them freedom to keep on doing things wrongfully.

Yeah, you do get a full story. Someone may be lying, but it's pretty easy to tell who's lying and who's not. It's a hell of a lot more beneficial than a short sentence. No one is asking you to judge anything. Just give both parties time to make their statements, and if it gets out of hand then lock it as you would any other thread.

I'd love to agree with you there about the iTrader, but it's simply not true. Anthony Bullock is a prime example: http://www.talkfreelance.com/itrader.php?u=1

91.4% positive reviews, yet a single thread which luckily made it for a period of time without getting deleted revealed who he really is. 91.4% positive reviews, yet he's one of the few members here whom are actually banned. Prime example of how the iTrader system is severely flawed and how much a single thread can be useful.

Originally Posted by TaeKwonJoe If they haven't done anything wrong then they have nothing to worry about. If they have done something wrong, then you're giving them freedom to keep on doing things wrongfully.

You are assuming everyone will always be honest. To use the last thread as an example, Jordan could have typed up those logs herself (I am not saying she did) and completely lied about his communication.

Originally Posted by TaeKwonJoe Yeah, you do get a full story. Someone may be lying, but it's pretty easy to tell who's lying and who's not. It's a hell of a lot more beneficial than a short sentence. No one is asking you to judge anything. Just give both parties time to make their statements, and if it gets out of hand then lock it as you would any other thread.

It is not always easy to see who is lying. Some cases are clear cut, but certainly not all of them. IM logs can be made up and anyone can say anything. The iTrader does not focus on an investigation, it focuses on how many clients of yours ended up happy.

Originally Posted by TaeKwonJoe I'd love to agree with you there about the iTrader, but it's simply not true. Anthony Bullock is a prime example: http://www.talkfreelance.com/itrader.php?u=1 91.4% positive reviews, yet a single thread which luckily made it for a period of time without getting deleted revealed who he really is. 91.4% positive reviews, yet he's one of the few members here whom are actually banned. Prime example of how the iTrader system is severely flawed and how much a single thread can be useful.

The fundamental problem with Anthony's iTrader could happen to the threads as well. No one would leave a bad rating for him, meaning they are either idiots or became happy in the end. If the vast majority of his clients ended up being happy the threads are the ones that conveyed inaccurate information; not the iTrader. Anthony was not banned as a result of that thread or any info in it, a member who had not even posted there came to me with proof that he scammed. The thread accomplished nothing.

Originally Posted by Village Genius You are assuming everyone will always be honest. To use the last thread as an example, Jordan could have typed up those logs herself (I am not saying she did) and completely lied about his communication. It is not always easy to see who is lying. Some cases are clear cut, but certainly not all of them. IM logs can be made up and anyone can say anything. The iTrader does not focus on an investigation, it focuses on how many clients of yours ended up happy. The fundamental problem with Anthony's iTrader could happen to the threads as well. No one would leave a bad rating for him, meaning they are either idiots or became happy in the end. If the vast majority of his clients ended up being happy the threads are the ones that conveyed inaccurate information; not the iTrader. Anthony was not banned as a result of that thread or any info in it, a member who had not even posted there came to me with proof that he scammed. The thread accomplished nothing.

I am not assuming everyone will be honest, I know that they won't be. However, it is fair to allow both parties to be given the chance to post their side of the story and let any future clients who come across it make his/her own decision. If you wanted to hire Jordan, which would you prefer as a reference:

1.) A few words saying something like: "Scammer, liar, thief!"?

or

2.) A detailed description of what actually went on during this transaction, whether it be truth or false, as well as the other parties response?

Given option two, it would then be much easier for you, the client, to make your own assumptions and contact both parties (if you wanted to) to dig deeper into what happened.

The iTrader could be false as well, but just as you guys said (Moderators), you can't be the ones to investigate and judge, so what makes the iTrader reports any more reliable than an actual thread? At the very least, you're getting some kind of information to go off of if given a thread.

I could easily gather 10 people on my MSN contacts list right now, get them to register here and make false iTrader reports on anyone, including myself.

The thread did accomplish something. It warned others of his poor project management skills which happened to be true. It saved me and countless others out of wasted time and perhaps even money. Not only that, but it still serves (if it isn't deleted) as a contribution a long with other threads on various other forums as evidence of his poor services.

If it wasn't true, then Anthony would have poked his head in and responded, but he didn't because he knows that he was in the wrong and had no defense.

I'm not saying that the iTrader system simply doesn't work, but not allowing these threads certainly doesn't help at all. (Sorry for using myself as an example again, but I don't go around studying peoples iTraders). My iTrader rating is currently around 83.3% or so, which I find embarrassing due to how hard I work to keep every one of my clients 100% satisfied. There is no telling how many people have turned around from hiring me because of that low rating, especially since they couldn't find any testimonial threads about my services.

Any information can be easily falsified and that's just one of the disadvantages with doing business with online (or as I see it "intangible") clients. I mean heck, the carmen_elektra guy's real name is Umar Salman and despite telling me how he's "always in Chicago," he's actually from Northolt, Middlesex, UK.

And after finally having real information on him I should have avoided him in the first place as.. his name brings up this: http://elliotjaystocks.com/blog/how-...p-the-thieves/

Which that right there does in fact prove that Google IS handy if the individual has a unique name and/or branding that you can search. Thank God ~I~ wasn't the one paying him.. Which, by the way, despite handing over work to him he filed a Paypal dispute for "Significantly Not as Described" and marked that the product was missing parts and was 'time sensitive late.'

I still wish my thread was left up but meh.

Originally Posted by Jordan Any information can be easily falsified and that's just one of the disadvantages with doing business with online (or as I see it "intangible") clients. I mean heck, the carmen_elektra guy's real name is Umar Salman and despite telling me how he's "always in Chicago," he's actually from Northolt, Middlesex, UK. And after finally having real information on him I should have avoided him in the first place as.. his name brings up this: http://elliotjaystocks.com/blog/how-...p-the-thieves/ Which that right there does in fact prove that Google IS handy if the individual has a unique name and/or branding that you can search. Thank God ~I~ wasn't the one paying him.. Which, by the way, despite handing over work to him he filed a Paypal dispute for "Significantly Not as Described" and marked that the product was missing parts and was 'time sensitive late.' I still wish my thread was left up but meh.

Btw, "Umar Salman" is like "John Smith" in some cultures.

Originally Posted by cableguy Btw, "Umar Salman" is like "John Smith" in some cultures.

Except when I look up in google.com, it's unique and far from "John Smith." Perhaps if I used Google in the native country for said culture, I might run into duplicates. However, this is not the case.

Originally Posted by triadink How about letting staff answer some of these VG your nobody!

Originally Posted by triadink actually i was not speaking to you, you were just the one that was in that thread with other members saying you were a scammer, so take your drama elsewhere!

Originally Posted by triadink Could you please explain why you moderate and delete any threads on jordan but yet there are similar threads on other members that have not been deleted....if your going to do that to one why be biased and not do it to others? Your a joke as a member of staff!

triadink, why do you allow yourself to be so disrespectful toward fellow members? Do you talk to your own members the same way? This is quite concerning and I would appreciate if you stay professional and remain respectful during the discussions, especially when you disagree with someone else's point(s) of view. Nobody canceled the most basic and the unwritten 'be polite' rule.


back on topic:
Regarding the matter I answered in another thread:
http://www.talkfreelance.com/showthr...775#post550775

Overall, without special tools and processes, it is impossible to be the mediator. All we can do is make the best possible decision with the proof both parties can present, but at the end of the day, any decision will be subjective in one way or another.

An iTrader is there as a complimentary service, as a pointer to user history during transactions. An iTrader is NOT ideal and it should NOT be relied upon completely. Calling someone a fraud without proof is one thing. But having a longstanding verifiable history of complaints against a member is another. In such cases I do agree that the community should be protected from members that have such history.