Downtime this evening

Frontpage is a sack of rancid pus.

Name a better program for it? Other than Visual Studio 2005.

Dreamweaver, Notepad.

Notepad isn't really the same class of program Its better for coding, of course because hand-coded is superior but it doesn't really work for transfering file

Dreamweaver... is wrong and tacky and bad and nasty and the ASP.NET it spits out is dreadful. Then there's that it doesn't have the ease of Frontpage Server Extensions.

Frontpage produces bloated, non-standards compliant, ugly code.

Dreamweaver (MX 2004) throws it on the ground and laughs in it's face. I use it only in code view but it kills it in design view too if you aren't interested in standards.

Textpad kills Notepad.

Show me a decent site produced with Frontpage?

Show me a decent site designed in Dreamweaver?

I would give Dreamweaver a go; but recently my cracks have not been working. Last time I used it however; it was messy and very much like Fireworks and Flash MX... its just... messy. The ASP.NET it pumps out is dreadful, I only really had a look at that and have yet to test its Design View which is probably as messy as the Flash MX stuff they attempt to call GUI. Frontpage is easy - which is what you want in that kind of program. It gives you what you want when you want it and not everything it has, in the case of Dreamweaver not that much all at once.

Actual Developer Tools; like Visual Studio 2005 and to a lesser extent the Free Web Matrix from the ASP.NET Site are far superior tools - both use Frontpage Server Extensions which was what I was talking about earlier Not the extensive and useful tools of Frontpage which are of great use to all who don't want to make Web Pages for a Living; people who want to make a Web Page visually in simple HTML to run on whatever Free Hosting they may have and to work instantly in Internet Explorer, no Standards, no checking, just instant pumped out code with the site looking as they made it in however long they did; two, maybe three hours. Frontpage Server Extensions double this advantage up - with the simplicity of putting in the site address, the Username and Password, and having Drag and Drop ability on the Files. Instant update - even making the site from its External Source and having every save popup onto the internet. Its great with High-Power ASP.NET in Visual Studio 2005 because nobody wants to wait for their PC's Virtual Server to pump back the page, they want the Server to do that and hence the files get saved to the Server as they're written and executed when the page is brought up for testing in the finalised Environment.

FTP has this... in a certain extent but to make even the smallest change you still need to pull up the site; you have to have the site on your Computer or you have to pull it back from the Server once, then update it with your new file. Its just dreadfully inconvenient especially in a Development Environment where you may have ten, twenty; but even as little as two people working on the site from different countries. Frontpage Server Extensions allow the Developers to see what is happening instantly. Save pages to the site directly for anybody else to then see and test and check off the list of things to do. Have the ability to give full tests while people are writing, save while other people are and not have a fear of overwriting something somebody else is doing because you always have the latest version of the site.

Maybe in PHP Development it doesn't matter But in ASP.NET Development we find it useful to know what people are doing when they are doing it; and no fear that you're overwriting what somebody else is doing merely by uploading your new version with every other file a few hours behind the Development. Even if you don't like Frontpage, or indeed use it; I can't see how people develop sites without the Server Extensions.

Dreamweaver has some collaboration features but tbh I've never used them so can't comment on their usefulness... Also never used ASP.NET so can't comment on that either.

The comment that your cracks have not been working lately is not a good one. If you are using software to make money you should understand that someone created that software for the same purpose - to make some money - and you should pay for it.

Frontpage extensions actually sound useful the way you've described them though. My programmer and I always know to download the latest version of a file before updating it but without asking each other there's no knowing if we both downloaded it at the same time and worked on it at the same time with one of us then overwriting the others - would be bad - but we ask.

A dececnt site designed in Dreamweaver? I'll have to say my own, www.yournewdesigner.com, designed in Photoshop and Dreamweaver. Same applies to most of the stuff in my portfolio, though www.yournewdesigner.com was the last time I used split/design view as now I code everything css/xhtml in code view, such as www.contemplate.us and my upcoming release ******.com, only checking the layout in the target browsers. (domain name censored by me because I'm contractually obliged to keep it's identity secret until it's released to the public).

Originally Posted by seen.to The comment that your cracks have not been working lately is not a good one. If you are using software to make money you should understand that someone created that software for the same purpose - to make some money - and you should pay for it.

I use Dreamweaver purely as a piece of fun; so that I may learn about it in order to have a better base in which to moan at its woeful inadequacies. I don't even use Visual Studio to make money; nor Frontpage, though I use them for making sites and I have paid for both. I do not make sites on Dreamweaver and therefore do not feel the need to pay them for the privallage. If I had to, I would not even bother learning about it.

Originally Posted by seen.to Frontpage extensions actually sound useful the way you've described them though. My programmer and I always know to download the latest version of a file before updating it but without asking each other there's no knowing if we both downloaded it at the same time and worked on it at the same time with one of us then overwriting the others - would be bad - but we ask.

Instant Messengers are extremely useful in that respect. I have heard some brilliant stuff about Visual Studio Team Foundation; an application that is installed on a Server that comes with Visual Studio Team Edition which acts as a check in and out for work. Its of course meant for medium plus companies; a dozen or more developers and such like but the theory is still there. It acts as a depository for the development and only changes files authorised to be changed and specifically keeps logs of everything checking in and out to make sure nothing gets updated or deleted without somebody being asked if they want to do that first. Of course in some situations you want to revert to a backup. It also runs tests on the software and can not allow a piece of software to be checked in if it does not pass a certain level of testing. Its of course more for Application Development but there are probably situations on sites where the code; if in ASP.NET and C# or VB or C++ at least gets so complicated it can be reconed with an application and it becomes useful. Some very good things in Visual Studio 2005

Originally Posted by seen.to A dececnt site designed in Dreamweaver? I'll have to say my own, www.yournewdesigner.com, designed in Photoshop and Dreamweaver. Same applies to most of the stuff in my portfolio, though www.yournewdesigner.com was the last time I used split/design view as now I code everything css/xhtml in code view, such as www.contemplate.us and my upcoming release ******.com, only checking the layout in the target browsers. (domain name censored by me because I'm contractually obliged to keep it's identity secret until it's released to the public).

Hmmm... well you're obviously a whole lot better than anybody I know who would want to use Dreamweaver. You should see some that come out of College! You can seriously see the difference in those using Dreamweaver and those who get to use Frontpage.

Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn Shouldn't be using FTP anyway Frontpage Server Extensions Adam! Frontpage Server Extensions!

please dont swear on the forums

dreamweaver has a nice ftp feature inside of it which i used to use but i develop everything localy now and upload it all in one go.

That's my point - in larger Developments, even those with more than one person, a simple HTML Site, such a setup without some complicated Tasking - which you just know nobody is going to be able to do let alone stick to is going to be impossible or end up with the loss of work. Frontpage Server Extensions offer a on the moment always uptodate central position for the development.