Complications en route to new forum release.

Honestly this arguing is nonsense, I personally don't agree with only hiring from outside the forum. At the end of the day if a design looks good then no one will complain. I bet you if a designer here made something beautiful and you thought it was made by someone outside TFL you'd still appreciate the design.

At the end of the day It's Artashes who is deciding but we are not helping him by narrowing down our options.

He is justified to say assume that they would produce something better than anybody in this thread/forum 9 times out of 10. This isn't belittling users here, it's just stating something that is obvious.

Saying that it's obvious that no designer here has the capability of producing the quality of work we are speaking of is very belittling.

Originally Posted by Dan You're wrong to express this opinion in the manner you have. It's highly offending and honestly, very belitting. As a member first and foremost, I feel yourself and CPR have let us down.

You're saying that I'm unjustified by saying that professionals are better than non-professionals? Is it considered belittling to state that most peoples' work here isn't as good as professionals'? I've even been considerate by saying that there ARE times when non-professionals produce as good, or even better designs.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with position. Are you saying that Chris and I should be going around saying everyone is a pro and all their designs are exceptional? As you say, it's up to Artashes at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by Apple Saying that it's obvious that no designer here has the capability of producing the quality of work we are speaking of is very belittling.

I didn't say that at all. I actually invited people including you to try. Not only that, I only said that people here would probably not produce as good work as professionals (again, 9 times out of 10). I'd personally rather a professional's work, than some one who's not. Despite that, as Dan said, if we see a design which we like, we (Artashes rather) will go for that, be it a community member or not.

Originally Posted by Gatt At the end of the day if a design looks good then no one will complain. I bet you if a designer here made something beautiful and you thought it was made by someone outside TFL you'd still appreciate the design.

Completely true.

I understand that, but it's very discouraging to give it a shot when several people here are blatantly stating that there is little to no faith in us or our work.

You're ignorantly labeling people non-professionals.

All I've said, and what Chris has said, is that "your" work (not you specifically but the community - one I'm a member of remember) isn't up to full-time professional level. That's all.

Originally Posted by Dan You're ignorantly labeling people non-professionals.

I doubt many people here do freelancing as their full-time job at a professional level. In my first post I explained what I thought a professional was. I'll remember to include the full time bit in future. Also, I mean professionals as the type of people who get high profile jobs. People like jm and Bryan Le are tf examples, but they no longer visit.

Originally Posted by Dan You're ignorantly labeling people non-professionals.

I think he's automatically considering most of the people here non-professionals considering this is a freelancing forum.

Gaz, stop assuming the skill level of the members on TFL or even this thread is not on a professional level.

It is pathetic to see an administrator justifying the stupidity of a super moderator on this board. Really I would have taken it as more of an insult considering both of your positions but after reading the manner in which you pass judgement and baseless assumptions; I couldn't care less.

Both of you are free to call yourselves non-professional, but please, don't think that makes it okay for you to label everybody else in the same way.

You're saying that I'm unjustified by saying that professionals are better than non-professionals? Is it considered belittling to state that most peoples' work here isn't as good as professionals'? I've even been considerate by saying that there ARE times when non-professionals produce as good, or even better designs.

No that's not even an argument right now. The answer to that is pretty obvious. What we are disagreeing with is the fact that you cannot call the people at Talkfreelance unprofessional.

I doubt many people here do freelancing as their full-time job at a professional level. In my first post I explained what I thought a professional was. I'll remember to include the full time bit in future. Also, I mean professionals as the type of people who get high profile jobs. People like jm and Bryan Le are tf examples, but they no longer visit.

STOP ASSUMING! You are basing your assumptions on other assumptions, come on, seriously you are going to piss off the entire community!

Originally Posted by Dan You're wrong to express this opinion in the manner you have. It's highly offending and honestly, very belitting. As a member first and foremost, I feel yourself and CPR have let us down.

I'm not sure why you think I've let you down, I've stated what my opinion is on the matter, that's all. If a designer from the thread ends up doing the skin then fair enough, I still stick by my original statement that the list of designers I have passed onto Artashes would produce a better end product.

Originally Posted by Dan It's clear you misread what I wrote so let me rephrase. Firstly, It's the design not designer. A good design is made up of the factors you listed above, what seperates it from others is being ripped apart from every angle, scaling down to perfectly fit ideologies etc.

I didn't misread anything. The factors you listed make a good design, the factors I listed make a good designer and in turn good designs.

Originally Posted by Dan Just because you have no confidence in your abilites please don't try and rub off the same mindset to others. It's insulting.

I have plenty of confidence in my ability, I'm just happy to accept when other people can produce work to a higher level than me, it seems some people can't.

Can we please not turn this thread into an argument?

Everyone gets a chance to contribute their ideas and opinions. Up until page 3 everyone was doing just that. Keep your head cool and do not take things out of context. Nothing that was said was inappropriate or meant as an insult as everyone sees things differently.

As I mentioned many times, I do not mind working with one or a group of designers as a collaborative action, whether they are members of TF or not. At the very beginning I stated that one of the reason I purchased the community is because of a great talent pool behind it. Undoubtedly I believe we have our stars here who might have given up on the community a while ago and are not active (doesn't mean they are not reachable). Just as strongly I believe we have able folks who posted in this thread as well who might design something that everyone will love equally. It is exactly why I started this thread out of long-term thinking even before the forum was even sold.

I also know that we have amazing designers as part of staff. Each of these guys have strengths and weaknesses, just as any designer, and I would have LOVED to get the chance to work with all of them, and even more other members who are not part of staff. Unfortunately my pockets are not that deep and I had to draw the line somewhere of what I was ready to spend playing with concepts and testing the waters. I can keep on doing that, but then I will just burn through all the available capital with no particular results at the end. I chose to come to you, the community, for further ideas and suggestions, as well as recommendations. I do not want to hear any more arguments. They are not doing anyone any favors nor are they helping me make a decision, while every opinion does help.

If some of you feel gracious enough to volunteer (as Apple kindly did already) with a concept of your own, please do contact me.

If you can keep throwing recommendations of talented creative designers who you have full confidence and trust in delivering a world-class result, then keep doing that in this thread.

If you want to continue the drama and arguments, I can suggest a couple of other forums that are dedicated to that. I am here to rebuild and grow TalkFreelance into a quality resource/destination, I expect nothing but maturity from everyone who wants to help us get there, for the benefit of all of us.


In the meantime, I have received a number of other terrific recommendations of outside to TF designers who seem able, and I will be contacting some of them who I like the most for their quotes and work availability in coming days.