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12-18-2008, 07:52 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
But for all intents an purposes, we refer to them as programming languages. Yelling at us for SQL not being a programming language is like yelling at someone for referring to a sedan as a car. SQL is for all intents and purposes, a programming language.
Aside from HTML and CSS, we refer to those languages as programming languages because they are programming languages (not just "for all intents and purposes"). Anyone who claims that a scripting languages is not a programming language either has his own arbitrary definition of a programming language (that is probably incorrect) or just doesn't know what he is talking about.

To illustrate my point, let's assume I make a web server in Python and another in C++. Is the Python web server not a program, but for some reason the C++ web server is? A program doesn't need to be in native code (asm/C/C++) or bytecode (Java) to be considered a program.

Some people only consider Turing-complete languages to be programming languages. In this case, SQL wouldn't be considered a programming language. I don't follow this mindset though.

Village Idiot, this isn't an attack on you. I've just seen way to many people propagate false ideas about computer science (such as that an OS is a program...gah). I also agree with you that PHP is a very poor language. IMO it hindered the advancement of web development for quite awhile (hosts wouldn't install PHP 5 because of incompatibilities with software made for PHP 4, inexperienced developers were locked in to using PHP and wouldn't investigate other ways to do things, etc). I'm very glad now (for a few years, actually) that there are viable alternatives to PHP (Ruby, Python, ASP.NET, etc). Like you said, the problem is that PHP is so simple to use out of the box. It is an entirely different situation if you use a PHP framework like Symfony. Life becomes much more bearable then.

PHP Code:
<?php
echo "Hey Mom, I made my first web page!!!1!1!";
?>
The unfortunate irony is that I am a PHP developer. Eight hours a day I sift through code that was written before I even started web development. In fact it is because I have seen the absolute nethermost facets of PHP misuse, I try and help people to not make the same mistakes as those who programmed what I now work on.

Anyway, I'm not sure if the OP is still around, but for those at the stage where you want to learn something new, I have some advice. As a web development language, Perl is dead. It still might be useful to know for system maintainers, though. I'm not sure why the OP felt he even needed to learn it. There are always two languages I recommend people to learn, whether for web development or just general programming. In my opinion Ruby and Python are two of the easiest, most well designed, languages out there. I have never used Django, but I know that Ruby on Rails makes my life as a web developer so much easier (that is, when I am fortunate enough to be able to use it).

As far as web development goes, it is more important to know how the web works than to know a language/framework. It is the same as with general programming. If you know how a computer system works, you can pick the best language for the job, whether that's C or Java or Erlang. If any programming language will work, then you can use the language you are best at. This is the benefit of an agile learner that is not "language locked." The way computers work changes a lot less frequently then the languages that program them.

At my work there are 4 PHP programmers. Two of us also know RoR and one of us is also a Java developer. One individual would probably have a very hard time learning a language other than PHP. We are considering updating are platform to Java. The two of us who know RoR would be able to fairly easily adapt and learn Java. However, the one person who only knows PHP would become almost useless to the company.

What is important is not what languages you know, but what languages/methodologies you are capable of learning.

Considering, however, that this is a community of freelancers, there are a few differences. As a freelancer, you are expected to work on the job (once you get it). You aren't expected or even paid to learn the language/platform that the job requires. For this reason (and in cases like it), it is definitely beneficial to know at least one language/platform well enough to market it as your strong point. Freelancers, unfortunately, don't seem to have the benefit of being paid to learn new and different concepts. I guess it comes with having a heck of a lot more freedom in other areas.